A blog for Christian men "going their own way."

Saturday, December 20, 2008

So Sorry, But Not This Time, Amigo

Michael Weiss writes the following regarding websites such as "Eternal Bachelor" and "MGTOW" ...
Web bookmarks no doubt to be shortly followed by “BabyComeBack.com,” “BCWH” (Bros Coexisting With Hos), and “Yes, Dear.” Because who do we think we’re fooling, really? Not Kay Hymowitz, who concludes by acknowledging what most “studies” have found: all Angry Young Men eventually quit the struggle and settle for the safe institution of marriage over the fantasy of zero responsibility (even if it is only in baseball).
I'll tell you who you're fooling, Michael. Yourself. You and the rest of the MSM. True, the "studies" say a lot of men want to marry in theory. But pray tell, what about the actual rates, my friend? Are the number of marriages going up? How about men marrying while they are still young? If there wasn't any smoke, you guys wouldn't be clucking about men in the first place.

Things are different this time around, folks. Yes, in the past there were cranky Benedicks who always found their Beatrices in the end. But the current exodus of men from the commitment scene is no "much ado about nothing."

Let's face it: The norms of our society have eroded. People have become much more mercenary in their dealings with each other. The "Me" Generation never really went away. It just spawned younger, crasser iterations of itself. This has certainly affected how men and women relate to each other. In a culture that dictates that no one can be really trusted and that a person "must look out for #1," did you expect that men would still warm up to the idea of marriage? Why should they as long as society rewards women who engage in unethical behavior?

P.S. My prediction is that Michael Weiss will start a blog detailing his woes in family court before there is ever a movement called BCWH.

8 comments:

Amigo Mobility Scooters said...

well i am in love with amigo. It rocks.

Amir Larijani said...

A couple things:

(1) Perhaps in a secular milieu, no marriage might be tantamount to zero responsibility. On the other hand, that is hardly the case in the Christian context.

In fact, the Christian who is single has even less excuse for not getting involved in the ministries of the Church.

(2) From a purely secular standpoint--which is the perspective from which Weiss writes--marriage is anything but safe. In fact, assessing things purely in terms of risk management, the two are even-money at best, with singleness being less risky in some cases.

After all, minus the Christian case for marriage, the legal, financial, and social advantages of marriages are miniscule today compared to what they were 40 years ago.

(3) While some men might opt for the blue pill and embrace "Yes, dear", there is no substantive case to show that men who eventually marry are embracing the P.W. tag.

Anakin says:
True, the "studies" say a lot of men want to marry in theory. But pray tell, what about the actual rates, my friend? Are the number of marriages going up? How about men marrying while they are still young? If there wasn't any smoke, you guys wouldn't be clucking about men in the first place.

That about sums it up. It's not like men--as a group--don't want to marry. On the other hand, as I said, outside the Christian perspective, society has taken away most of the positive tradeoff of marriage--adding an order of magnitude to the risk.

Making matters worse, as I said, societal structures that would normally help in the relationship process--church, family ties, community--have been weakened. This has made matters difficult for both sexes.

As for Christian men, I'm still skeptical as to how many of them proportionally are in the MGTOW/MRA camp. I'm not in that camp--although I can see the case for why one would want to be--and I don't personally know any who are.

I've seen a few of them in the blogosphere, but I've yet to see any stats on the MGTOW segment in the Church. I'd bet money that it is not a large one.

Are Christian men more risk-averse today? Yes. And so are the women, for that matter.

Is it possible that there is too much risk-aversion in many cases?

Perhaps. But, like I said, you have both sexes compensating for a social structure that no longer exists, and using methodologies to find a mate that are largely unproven and are at best marginal in their efficacy.

Elusive Wapiti said...

It's not just men abandoning marriage. Women are too, albeit for different reasons.

Moreover, the data I've seen suggests that proportionately more women are pushing back from the idea of marriage than men. Not so much because they don't want to get married--women still love the idea of getting married--but because they can get just about all they want without all the hassle of actually marrying some clown.

I think many men, somewhat romantically, still cling to the notion that family consists of husband and wife. The proportion of women that do so I think is much much smaller. And the female vision of marriage includes working (ostensibly "just in case" divorce randomly happens to them) and independence and "strong woman" and all that, something that I don't think dovetails well with men's vision of marriage, which is still a bit more shall we say traditional.

Minus Amir's Christian case for marriage, I contend that the expected outcome for men in marriage is pretty close to zero. For women, I contend it is clearly negative.

Also, I consider myself a Christian MGTOWer. Although my definition of MGTOW is probably a lot less bombastic than some. And it includes marriage, something that possibly a lot of other fellows do not, as they see marriage as something akin to slavery. Ironically not unlike the Second Wave femmarxists of auld.

Amir Larijani said...

As someone who has never played World of Warcraft, has never owned a Playstation, and almost never turns on a television, I'd say that the article--in its entirety--is relatively balanced.

And, if anything, he is quite critical of Hymowitz.

Anonymous said...

"Moreover, the data I've seen suggests that proportionately more women are pushing back from the idea of marriage than men. Not so much because they don't want to get married--women still love the idea of getting married--but because they can get just about all they want without all the hassle of actually marrying some clown."

It seems that women can get all they want in basically two ways...either they work full-time to earn what they want by the sweat of their brows like we men, or they get it through divorcing a husband and taking it. My bet is that the vast majority of women don't want to work full-time for the rest of their lives for the things they want.

emarel

Ken said...

There are young men who tell themselves and others that they want to get married, but once they have a little more understanding and experience with the world, they decide against it.

There are also men who end up getting married because they feel obligated to marry. They are not likely, especially not in front of their wives, to admit that. They may not even admit it to themselves.

Anonymous said...

"Minus Amir's Christian case for marriage, I contend that the expected outcome for men in marriage is pretty close to zero. For women, I contend it is clearly negative."

Could you tell us what you mean here, EW? Why more negative for women?

Anonymous said...

The writings of Pastor Sheldon Emry (pdf's):

Billions For The Bankers
Debts For The People


Bible Law On Money